The UX Consultants Lounge

Becca Kennedy - From Academia to UX Consulting

• Kyle Soucy • Episode 3

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In this episode of the UX Consultants Lounge, host Kyle Soucy sits down with Becca Kennedy, the owner of Kennason, a UX consultancy that combines design research and content design services. With over 15 years in the industry and nearly a decade of running her own consultancy, Becca shares her insights and experiences in the world of UX consulting.

What You’ll Learn:

  • Becca’s Transition from Academia to UX Consulting: Becca discusses her journey from earning a PhD in Human Factors Psychology to becoming a successful UX consultant. She delves into how her academic background shaped her approach to user experience and how she transitioned from academia to the consulting world.

  • Finding and Retaining Clients: Becca shares her early experiences in finding her first clients through local networking and discusses the importance of building relationships within the community. She also talks about her innovative “Let’s Fix It” workshops, designed to give new clients a taste of her services with actionable takeaways.

  • The Importance of Saying No: Becca and Kyle explore the critical importance of knowing when to turn down work. Becca provides tips on how to evaluate potential projects and maintain a balance between business growth and personal well-being.

  • Subcontracting Insights: They discuss the benefits and challenges of subcontracting through larger design firms, offering advice on how to balance direct client work with subcontracting projects.

  • Disability Insurance for the Self-Employed: Becca provides valuable advice on the often-overlooked topic of disability insurance for freelancers and consultants, emphasizing the importance of financial planning and security.

Submit Your Stories and Questions: Do you have a topic or question you’d like us to explore in a future episode? Perhaps there's an anonymous consulting story you want to share? Click here to submit your story or question on our podcast website.

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I can’t wait to have you back in the lounge for our next episode!

Kyle Soucy:

Welcome to the UX=consultants lounge. I'm Kyle Soucy, founder of usable interface an independent UX research consultancy. You can find out more about my work and the services I offer at my website, usable interface. com. I'll be your host here at the lounge where I'll be providing a place for UX consultants to gather, share stories, and learn more from one another. My guest today is Becca Kennedy She is the owner of Kennason, a consultancy combining design research and content design services. Now, I've known Becca for a while now. And I'm so glad I had an opportunity to interview her for this podcast because I just think she's wonderful. And I think more people need to know about her. And during this hour that we spent talking, we really covered a lot of topics. You're going to learn about Becca's journey, transitioning from academia to becoming a UX consultant, uh, how she found her first clients, we discussed a new service she's offering called Let's Fix It Workshops as a way to let clients get a small taste of her services before committing to a large project. We also talked a lot about when to turn down work and how it can be critical to the success of your business. And during that we touched on how to ask about budgets, which is always hard. We spent a good chunk of time talking about subcontracting through design firms, in order to supplement our pipeline whenever direct client work is slow. And lastly, we talked about disability insurance for the self employed. So let me tell you a little bit more about Becca before getting into the interview. She's had her consultancy now for almost 10 years, and she's been working in the industry for over 15 years. Her career began in usability and human computer interaction. Her PhD is in human factors psychology with a focus on games and simulations for training in healthcare. She started Kennason in 2015 and has since worked with over 65 organizations to help improve their products and services. Becca also writes a great newsletter called Interrobang on everyday design. She lives in Albany, New York with her spouse and cats. And when she's away from her desk, she might be walking in the woods, reading from an ever growing stack of books. listening to a comedy podcast or playing a silly video game, which we will actually talk a lot about in the beginning of the interview, the love of video games. So with all that said, let's get to the interview. Please enjoy Becca Kennedy. All right, Becca. Well, welcome to the UX consultants lounge.

Becca Kennedy:

Thank you. So excited. I wish we were in like a real cozy lounge, but, um, given that we can't be physically together, this is, I guess, the next best thing.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah, we can pretend, right?

Becca Kennedy:

Yeah, exactly.

Kyle Soucy:

Well, it's nice to have an excuse to chat with you one on one because I feel like we don't get a chance to do that as often as we should, or we don't make time for it as often as we should. Right.

Becca Kennedy:

Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to find the time to catch up. So I'm excited to chat with you.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah, I find that it's one of the perks of doing the show. It makes a point that I have to talk to people, which is

Becca Kennedy:

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. You get to catch up with people, meet new people. It's pretty great.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah, and another perk, um, is that I get to do some research on you, which may have otherwise seemed creepy. But what I learned, is that you love to talk about theme parks, and I didn't know that.

Becca Kennedy:

Oh, that's hilarious. So that means I did a good job containing myself and not bringing up like theme park examples every time we talk about stuff.

Kyle Soucy:

Well, it was in one of your newsletters. I did read about that where you talked about Disneyland. But what, what is your favorite theme park or ride?

Becca Kennedy:

That's an interesting question because I'm definitely a Disney theme parks person. And I'm excited that I'm planning a trip to Tokyo, which apparently has, the best versions of that, where, the service is excellent, and the details are excellent, and it's just that level of experience that we don't really have, in California or Florida anymore. But yeah, it's about, for me, appreciating all of the, design and creativity and thoughtfulness that goes into designing these spaces that are just meant to be like joyful for people. Like my whole life I'm just like fascinated by those little things that they do to make things really a special magical, you know, place.

Kyle Soucy:

I feel embarrassed to admit it, but I've never been to Disney world.

Becca Kennedy:

I mean that's normal, that's fine.

Kyle Soucy:

I don't know. Is it, I feel like I'm always in the minority, but especially now having kids and like, we probably have to bite the bullet and And then everybody says, even if you're not a theme park person, once you go, you become one. Like, it's just, the magic is there. Undeniable.

Becca Kennedy:

Yep. And I think there's like that design layer too, like just appreciating all the work that goes into it in like the research too, of the service design and all of that. You know, you might have a different appreciation than someone else who's not in that world.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah, as a UX person, it's probably like a rite of passage, and I know some folks that work for Disney, and I know they work really hard, so, yeah, I think that should be on my list And I, also found out that your go to recharge activity is that you like playing video games.

Becca Kennedy:

I am definitely, I'm a Nintendo person. Yeah, and I love playing games alone. I'm not a competitive like let's jump online and play against people. It's an immersion thing It's really similar to the theme parks or it's appreciating this world that The creator's built and like the mechanics in it and all that stuff. Um, you know, it's a, it both as something that surface level, I just enjoy, but also like on a deeper level, it's very cool how they did all of this and how they thought of it and. Came up with this experience for again, like an experience that's really like for joy for people.

Kyle Soucy:

I was curious to know, what's your favorite Nintendo game?

Becca Kennedy:

I am definitely a zelda person I'm still playing tears of the kingdom came out over a year ago And i'm still like jumping in and out of it because I don't want to to end. Some people are really into like, um, like battling the creatures and stuff. And I'm, I'm not, I avoid them. I'd rather just like, walk through the forest and collect things. But yeah, it's really great how those experiences can exist and people can make what they want out of it. It's really fascinating, actually.

Kyle Soucy:

See, that makes me nostalgic because I used to play video games, but it's been way too long. It's probably been like 16 years or so. And I was really into graphic, uh, adventure like Myst or Siberia. There was one called phantasmagoria that I loved. It was like a horror adventure

Becca Kennedy:

Yeah. That's dope.

Kyle Soucy:

And I know what you mean by the immersive, like I would get lost in that world. And I loved the sounds. I loved the detail. Everything. It was really

Becca Kennedy:

Yeah, a lot of video game music actually is really good to, focus to, like, to study to, or to, do some, deep work to. YouTube will have, like, Rainy day, like whatever the game is, like music, um, and you want to do something like that instead of just the straight up soundtrack because we run into like boss battle music and stuff and you'll be like, why am I getting so anxious all of a sudden?

Kyle Soucy:

I have to look that up because I always loved the music from Syberia. That was my ultimate favorite. So I gotta look that up.

Becca Kennedy:

look it up too now.

Kyle Soucy:

Oh, it's good. It's so good. It's kind of cool to do this research cause I already knew from years of knowing you that you were just laid back and easy to be around, easy to talk to, but I just had no idea how playful you

Becca Kennedy:

funny. Yeah, I think that's accurate.

Kyle Soucy:

Well, let's talk now about your business, Kennason. So tell us a little bit about it and the services you offer. Sure.

Becca Kennedy:

sure. So my consulting company is called Kennason and, it is just me, although I'll bring in people here and there where it makes sense. So Kennason offers user experience strategy, And my specific flavors of that I usually say are design research or UX research and content design. That being said, I do a lot of different things. It becomes hard to specialize when it's just like, I don't know, just wanting to do so much and wanting to do so many different things. But I think where my skills are and where I can offer the most is really the research piece. And then if there's a content component, Like the content piece, whether that's information architecture or, uh, just organizing, structuring information, UX writing, I kind of put all those things together. And I've been doing that since 2015. So I started the company in 2015. It's been almost 10 years. And I'm still going so that's a good thing.

Kyle Soucy:

Oh, that's great. So you're going to celebrate your 10th anniversary

Becca Kennedy:

Yeah, actually it's in like a year, but I'm starting to round up, you know what I mean?

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah.

Becca Kennedy:

Basically a decade at this point. Can I start saying that in my own copy?

Kyle Soucy:

Yes. Yeah. I think you can. It's earned. And so 2015. And if I remember correctly, did it originally start solo or did you start as a partnership?

Becca Kennedy:

that's such a good and interesting and funny question. So I started it with two other people, which I think was the right move for me at the time. So I, at that point, I was fairly young and I didn't really know what What a consulting company or freelance business would look like at all So when I told a couple friends of mine that I wanted to do it I had you know, two different friends be like cool. I want to do it with you And I was like great. I need help. That's fine Um, so our first few clients, you know, we we tackled as a team and I think fairly quickly It was kind of obvious that I was the one who was just like more into it and like oh I want this to be like My life, like this is what I want to do with my career. It's less about like, oh, let's do like a little side hustle and move on. And I think the other folks went on to do other really cool things. But yeah, so the name Kennason actually is a remnant of multiple last names because my last name's Kennedy. Which occasionally causes confusion with people calling me by the wrong last name.

Kyle Soucy:

Oh,

Becca Kennedy:

that's fine. I like that. It was a name that didn't specifically reference user experience or Tech or anything that I would feel could pigeonhole me in the future so that's why I've stuck with that,

Kyle Soucy:

That brings up such a good point. We actually had a listener question, uh, and it was all about, is it better to use your own name or a business name when you're naming your business? And I think it's funny that you mentioned how you didn't want to be, stuck if you were to name it something other than your name. I kind of had the same issue when I was naming my business where, you know, 20 years ago, I didn't know really what I wanted to specialize in. I did a little wireframing, did a little research, did a little this, a little of that. So it was just usable interface. I'm like, that kind of covers it all. But now, now that I strictly do research, I wish it was more descriptive because it literally could, like you read that, it could be copy, it could be design, it could be development. I mean, anything goes into a usable interface. So if I could do it over again, I might have chosen differently, but I don't know if I would have done my name or not. Um, so the, so Kennason is, so Kennedy you and then there were two others and part of that is their name or,

Becca Kennedy:

Exactly. It's actually one of their last names. It yeah was kind of a funny beginning to it but I never think about that because i'm just like At this point people know that as the name of the company like You SEO's good, websites there, emails there. This works out. People don't really question it. Um, you don't have to say what it is, but have you thought about, like, if you would change your name, would it be like, Might be instead.

Kyle Soucy:

No, you know, I haven't. Um, I haven't given it that much thought where I would have an alternative, but if I could do it over again, I probably wouldn't have gone as broad. I know people who have their, you know, last name consulting or whatever. And it works fine. I just, I don't know why I went that route. I think I've always wished that I could say the name and people would be like, Oh, okay. I pretty much get what you do, but I don't know if that's even possible anymore. Um, cause there's so much nuance to, to all the services everyone provides.

Becca Kennedy:

Yeah.

Kyle Soucy:

with your name, I'm curious at what point in the business did the other two kind of drop off and you become just solo?

Becca Kennedy:

I don't know if I remember exactly. I think the first person and she ended up, taking on a full time role, as a UX designer in the house somewhere and, and kind of moved on. And I think that happened like within maybe a year or so. But she did help get everything just kind of set up. And I had not really worked in an agency setting before, or, an industry setting before, so even just knowing Trello, Slack, like just some of like the tools and processes that make for a successful project, like she introduced to me, so at least I was walking into client projects having that sort of thing set up, whereas otherwise I wouldn't, like if I were on my own, I honestly did not. Um, and then the other partner, he was around for a few years also, and there were a few projects we did together, but ultimately he's more of a like, I want to build a product person and I'm more of a I want to deliver services person. I'm not interested in like building my own thing or having a startup. So I think that's why ultimately he ended up wanting to do other things. And so it's been mostly me for the duration of the business, but exclusively me for the last five, six years, maybe.

Kyle Soucy:

Okay. And when you originally started, is it the same service as you're doing now, that mixture of UX research and content development or content

Becca Kennedy:

at the time it was actually A lot more usability focused. That's more of my skills were, cause actually I came from academia, so usability research was closer to what I had already done. And it took me a few years to just kind of build up some more, I think specific skills with discovery research, um, like concept testing, like more innovation type stuff. And, the content design stuff actually came a little bit later. Later, um, the past, maybe three or four years, where I just, I really enjoy doing, I'll simplify and say like the words for projects, and that would be what I would end up doing a lot of times on projects, um, is filling in and being that person, so I made an effort to go to content design conferences and read the books and just kind of fine tune how I thought about that and how I offered that and how I executed on the content piece. Because I find it actually meshes very well with the research side of things. Like, you know, how do we, change our messaging, for example, or is our terminology working, or like, We need an audit of what content exists. That works really well with like, well, let's do some research and figure it out. Let's talk to people. Let's use the words they use. Let's, um, you know, do some navigation testing or card sorting or whatever it might be. They just kind of naturally fit together really well.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah, it's a great mix to have a researcher that also does, content. I think that's great. And with, your background, I'm often asked questions from people that are in academia, like, how do you transition? And it's definitely not a world I know, cause I do not have a PhD at all. I know that you do, you have a PhD in human factors, psychology. And I'd love to know, what that journey was from earning your PhD to becoming a UX consultant.

Becca Kennedy:

So for me and you and I have actually chatted about this before we're like the way people get into UX research and consulting really can depend on just where and when you were when you kind of like figured it out and made that connection and like went for it. So for me, I went to grad school for human factors psychology, like you said, so, um, if anyone listening, Isn't sure what that is. Basically, it's the study of how people interact with technology and interact with systems And a lot of the focus with that kind of research is reducing human error So a lot of times it's very safety critical context. Traditionally it was a lot of military stuff. I was Doing healthcare related stuff. But the reason I chose that is because, to your point earlier about video games, a lot of the research that's done in Human Factors actually is related to training and is related to using video games in simulations and virtual environments, virtual reality for training purposes. So, When I started grad school, that was 2009. So that was also a good time to go to grad school. Anyway, because it was recession time, you know, you were already a working gal at the time. Um, but for me it kind of worked out that like I had the PhD Idea in my head, while I was in college. So I did have research experience and stuff that, luckily did enable me to get accepted to a grad program and go for human factors. I'm from Albany, New York. I went to college also in New York. I moved to Norfolk, Virginia. For grad school. And after I got through like coursework and qualifying exams, which are really big deal in PhD programs, um, I actually ended up moving back to Albany. So my personal life, just everything kind of led me to need more, just like a safer place to anchor and just like restart be somewhere where I wanted to live. Be near people, you know, I was close to and kind of get my footing, um, and start my kind of professional life. So I was still working on my dissertation at the time. Um, but kind of like part time and it took a while, but my first job when I moved back to Albany, which was kind of a natural fit was working at a university, as a research staff member in a healthcare lab. So it was more of what I had been doing in grad school. I didn't get paid a ton. It was not a high profile position at all but the purpose of that was to Start making some money and really just start like getting to know what was happening in albany. So while I had been Becoming an expert basically in human factors. I was realizing that user experience is really, um, similar and more what I was going for when I, when I went to grad school, I kind of thought it would be a little bit more instead of like, only like just safety critical task based stuff, I wanted to do more like everyday products and. You know, improving things for people and making things better for people and, and some of that. So I was kind of learning about user experience at the same time. So when I landed in Albany, I was like, this is my chance. This is who I am. I'm a UX researcher is how I'm rebranding and going to meetups and kind of like finding other people who are doing similar things. Eventually starting Keneson, leaving the academic job, and kind of going forward from there. So a lot of trial and error along the way, but again, related to that time period, it was 2014, 2015, so like, that was a perfect time to kind of jump into UX. It was becoming recognized and becoming valued in the tech industry. But it wasn't overflowing flooded with people. There weren't a lot of folks who were like actually skilled and, and could, um, do that kind of work yet. So, um, there were a lot of UX designers, I will say, but the researchers hadn't caught up yet. So it was actually a great time to kind of figure it out, transfer those kind of academic research skills to more what I wanted to do and kind of make it happen.

Kyle Soucy:

That's perfect. And it was a perfect time for that. And you mentioned earlier that, um, you had the two partners and you had your first, clients, how did you find some of those first clients? Was it the local networking in

Becca Kennedy:

That's exactly right. So again, at that time, there was less remote work happening. Not that it didn't exist, but it just, I didn't know it existed yet. So definitely, yeah. I was going to a ton of like tech and design and even UX meetups in Albany. So, um, that's how I was. Getting to know people. Uh, our first clients, were startups. So they're at the time was a pretty thriving startup community. Partly because of the universities here and, and stuff. So our first projects were with clients who had, you know, Very little budget, but that was okay at the time for me just to get paid at all, to kind of like do what I wanted to do felt like a gift, honestly. And it was kind of quick and dirty research studies, um, with them. And I would say from there, there were What I think of now is like a few turning points. So I think three separate, which is kind of turning points that led to like, all right, this is a success. So, going from the startup clients to my first state government, Like a single project that was something like, you know, 27, 000, which was more than I made for my salary as a grad student, you know, one project, it just felt like, oh, wow, like, this is amazing. Um, and that came from, you know, connections in the community where there was usability tested needed for like a new, um, feature that, you know. One of the state websites was launching and I was the one to do it. Like that was amazing The second turning point was one of my connections locally turned into like two other projects with like locally known companies So in that instance, it was recognizing that There was somebody who understood exactly what value I bring even before I was really good at articulating it You know like understood oh, here's what you do. Like i'm involved I'm on the board or whatever for two companies who really need that right now So that helped kind of build things up. And then the third turning point was understanding and finding the opportunities to do subcontracting remotely. So I had done a little bit of subcontracting with like a local, uh, web dev shop, but to recognize that there are agencies everywhere. And a lot of them are kind of working remotely, even at the time, which was, you know, pre COVID. Um, That there are opportunities to work on, bigger projects with, nationally or internationally known companies and, work with a team on, bigger efforts was humongous for me. And, just figuring out those missing pieces of, this is how you turn it from, I can make a living doing this to, like, oh, I can do well. Running, running a business, you know, more so than kind of like freelancing. So that shift from freelancing, you know, to like, I'm a consultant now.

Kyle Soucy:

I feel like you did a great job. Marketing yourself locally and not even marketing yourself just being active right in the community Which I at that time for me, you know 2009 I was very active in local groups if I wasn't part of a group I was starting a group and I think that was so key to helping me to get business and ever since the pandemic I just feel so sorry for people that are trying to get that first client Get their business up and going because I know I depended on that a lot And I always thought of you when you know when we first met I just thought of you i'm like, okay She's the albany girl like she's on she's talking everywhere Like you just kind of had your your finger on the pulse of everything happening there and I thought that was so smart And good to do. I know we talked before, just recently about doing something like joining your local chamber of commerce and I have not done it, but I've gotten the recommendation to do it. And my area is, you know, where I live is pretty rural. And it's not like, I can't imagine that somebody is going to need user research or usability testing services in this area and be like, ah, you're the person. And I believe you had a similar, uh, experience,

Becca Kennedy:

I did. So I had some good experiences with my city chamber of commerce. Um, for example, like that state. Uh usability testing contract I mentioned um, I was able to use the chamber of commerce office as like a Because I don't I don't have like a actual off like I work from home I don't have an actual office to bring people in But I had a spot there that I just kind of like borrowed for a week to do in person usability testing. Um Right. So when we when we used to do that a lot more often than we do now, you know That was a benefit for example. Um But I struggled a bit I will say like that subcontracting aha moment came not from the Chamber of Commerce. It was just something that I don't think I was a good fit for what everyone else is doing there. Like, it was a lot of people doing really great things, but it was more about like, oh, I'm opening a store, I'm opening a bakery, I'm, like, doing these other types of small businesses that weren't really, service based businesses. Um, so where I hope to get, like, a little bit of education there, in terms of entrepreneurship, it didn't quite align with, the ever changing world of consulting in tech, right? So, like, no one ever kind of suggested, like, oh, why don't you think about joining projects that big agencies are doing? Never occurred to me, didn't occur to them, so just as an example of just Not having a ton in common with the folks there. Um,

Kyle Soucy:

Mm hmm.

Becca Kennedy:

kind of finding my communities elsewhere, you know, like on Slack and stuff like that.

Kyle Soucy:

I'm you know, I'm thinking of giving it a shot because who knows right like I'm saying probably not but maybe it's worth it Just one year pay the dues and see what the Chamber of Commerce has like Maybe it does have something like even that perk of the office space that could be cool or just meeting someone you never know And I'm so desperate to get back out there to be Socializing in groups again in person that I don't know might I might give it a whirl. I might give it a whirl But you also mentioned too You know about When you're first starting, you know, articulating, uh, what you do and getting that elevator pitch down, that was so hard for me. It took a long time to get comfortable with presenting myself and just being able to clearly state what it is I do. Because I know at that time too, UX was such a mystery. Like nobody knew what the heck you were talking about. Um, but I struggled with that too. I don't know why that took so long for me, but it was nice when I could finally be like. confident about explaining my services.

Becca Kennedy:

So I think a lot of the difficulty I was running into early on and why I didn't have a lot of confidence early on Is I was just talking to the wrong people You know what I mean? Like, you know, if it's not something that's relevant to them, it's not really going to connect so much. Um, and that's okay. And at this point, I've also learned, like, different ways of explaining what I do based on what the other person does. For example, the examples you give when you talk about what you do or the kinds of projects or clients you've had can depend on whatever they do and whatever might resonate with them. Um, but that all kind of takes time to figure out.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah. Yeah. I just try to make it relatable. Yeah. You also made a point to mention the difference, between labeling yourself as a freelancer or consultant. And that actually hits on another listener question we had, which was, you know, how do you decide whether to call yourself consultant or freelancer?

Becca Kennedy:

Man, I think, I think we've definitely talked about this before.

Kyle Soucy:

Oh, yeah. Oh, time.

Becca Kennedy:

I still kind of use both, again, depending on the context. But I think there is a difference in how people perceive you. So I think of a freelancer as kind of an extra pair of hands. So that comes up a lot. I mean, especially like in subcontracting, for example, where, you know, it might be like, Oh, we're running this, Bigger project and we need someone to come in and run two sets of 10 interviews or whatever and like you don't necessarily have a say in how it's done or And maybe you don't want to you just want to like do Whatever's already been planned just execute on it and there's nothing wrong with that at all But I think consulting is more about having a point of view And coming in as, a collaborator, so that is something that I tell people in early conversations if I'm talking to, prospects. Is that I work as more of a consultant than a freelancer, so that means, you really get a thought partner if you bring me in. Like, I do want to collaborate. I want to hear where you're coming from, what you've already done, what your priorities are. Um, and I can kind of adapt and like figure out what makes sense, what's most efficient, what'll help you get the answers you need and help you look good. Like I want to come in and be that helper in a way that's like very productive. Um, and comes from a place of expertise. So not to say freelancers aren't that, but I think there can be a perception difference in how people think about you based on how you describe yourself.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah. And, when we had this discussion, you were the very first person that I talked to. I'm like, I'm thinking of doing this podcast. I don't know if it's crazy. And you were awesome about supporting me and encouraging me to do it. And at that time I was like, I think it's going to be freelancers lounge. Yeah. I think that's what it's going to be. And it's bounced back and forth so much. And then I ended up doing consultants for pretty much the reason that you It's that difference between offering the strategy, uh, versus just doing staff augmentation work, which like you said, is, is still good and still needed. But there's just a difference there. But I've often said call me either, whatever, um, but there is a

Becca Kennedy:

There definitely is, I think. I'm also called a contractor sometimes. That's okay, that's fine. Um, you know, that won't be how I introduce myself. But internally, that might be how they me, and that's fine

Kyle Soucy:

thanks. See, contractor for me is hard. Oh my gosh, I kind of get a little like, my back gets a little straight and like, I'm not a contractor.

Becca Kennedy:

like, how dare you? Because usually it's, it's usually full time.

Kyle Soucy:

right. It's the 40 hour a week, uh, W 2 contract. That's, that's where I'm, want to make the distinction, you know?

Becca Kennedy:

yeah, that's fine.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah,

Becca Kennedy:

I also always say that too. Like I think in my earliest conversations with prospects, I say, well, I'm usually working on more than one thing at a time. So I don't, you know, work with one individual client or project. Like, that's just not really how I work. Important to kind of, like, set up that expectation up front.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah, that boundary, that expectation, absolutely. Yeah. Well one thing I wanted to talk about was, a service that you've recently added, on your website called Let's Fix It Workshops and I was wondering if you could tell us more about

Becca Kennedy:

I would love to, yeah. So, I started offering those maybe a little over a year ago. And it was just a realization I had that, like, I think there was something missing in how I was My services. So the let's fix it workshop, um, what they are is really focused work sessions, with clients. I would say really it's aimed at new to me clients. So it's like a focus working session to collaborate on, A specific issue they might be having. So UX issue, we know we need to do research, but we don't even know where to start. So it's really thinking of that like step zero that I know a lot of organizations, uh, are in when it comes to like, not even knowing where to go or what to do or what to ask for from a consultant. So I frame it three ways. Let's fix research. Let's fix content. Um, and let's fix usability and they're meant to be contained. Tactical problem solving. So I called it, let's fix it because it's collaborative. Like, Hey, let's do it and let's fix it. Meaning like, let's come up with some stuff that you can kind of do right away to smooth things out for the users of your product or service. So it's about efficiency. I really want people to walk away from that with things they can do fixes they can make immediately, but with an eye toward longer term. Uh, strategy, like what they might do if they were to continue working with me, for example So yeah, for me, I thought I'd had so many conversations with clients that are potential clients that never really went anywhere. Cause we just, it would take a really long time, a lot of back and forth to even figure out what they needed or how we could structure an engagement. So this is a way of taking that discovery piece. Which you can build into a larger project if that works for you, but I separated it out because I think you know Even if that's all a client does it's a low Financial commitment for them It's a low time effort commitment for me and at least they have that starting point and if they decide to work with me Awesome. If not, we can both be at least happy with what we have done with that.

Kyle Soucy:

And I think that's an interesting framing of it because it's not just scoping, but it's also letting them walk away with some actionable takeaways.

Becca Kennedy:

Yes, exactly.

Kyle Soucy:

And how long are the sessions, for

Becca Kennedy:

I aim to do about two hours. I've done 90 minutes, just depending on the context. But it really is, there's some pre work involved. So I will have like a couple calls and just get some context and ask participants. And I like to keep it small too, so I, like, five people's great. Like, whoever those, like, key stakeholders are, I'll send out a form beforehand that asks, Um, if that makes sense. And then kind of like discuss it in aggregate in a workshop that we do together and we do some like sticky note stuff or whatever, just to kind of prioritize issues. I had one organization participate who they knew they had, it was like an upcoming conference or meeting, I forget exactly what it was, but basically they knew they were going to have a bunch of their, users together at an upcoming in person event and they wanted to have a survey ready with a QR code, and like announce it and stuff and that whole workshop was about narrowing down everything they thought they wanted to learn from a single survey into what makes most sense for you to keep it simple, match the context, have people actually like finish answering it, and give you something that's usable information for whatever the exact next thing is.

Kyle Soucy:

And how have, the let's fix it workshops been, with getting new projects or even getting people to retain your services for other things?

Becca Kennedy:

love to do more of it But I will say so far it has been helpful in just getting people through the door so where a conversation might have just not really gone anywhere because maybe we couldn't figure out a way to Set up a bigger project to help them or they weren't really totally bought in Uh, or couldn't get whoever manages the money to buy in it's just You An easier, again, like lower stakes way of like getting a new client. Um, and hopefully leading to more, but sometimes that's kind of a longer term play, so we'll see how it keeps going. It's been an experiment, but I'm, I am happy with it. Cause I also enjoy doing it. It's fun to learn new things and really kind of problem solve in that way.

Kyle Soucy:

Well, I think it's brilliant, you know, from a business perspective, I learned about it when you posted on LinkedIn. Um, you said, Hey, I've got these, let's fix it workshops. And I was like, Oh, what a smart way to, to package this up, to take a smaller bite. If someone's not ready for a meal, you know, and to just to get an engagement started with you. So I thought that was great.

Becca Kennedy:

love that small bite metaphor. Cause that's exactly right.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah Well, thank you for sharing that because I think that's helpful that might help some others too that are thinking of Doing something like that a smaller engagement to get

Becca Kennedy:

Yeah. I think it's often hard for researchers specifically to kind of like package our stuff. I've seen designers do it well. For example, like, it can work really well for people to have a set, like, here's how I do things for this set price, this is what you get. With research, it's, you know, So hard because Every context is totally different Um, and that's what I always say too with client work. For me. It's not cookie cutter It's not one size fits all it's about what methods work, you know for your Particular problem areas your specific research questions. Um your budget like all of that is just so different or what research have you already done where are you starting with this like there's a lot that goes into You Scoping and pricing a project. So to try to create packages, for most of it doesn't really work. But I think yes, for this initial, like discovery, small bite, let's work something out, um, that you might be dealing with that seems like it works pretty well.

Kyle Soucy:

And it's a good segue to the other thing I wanted to talk to you about, which is how you choose to take on projects or say no to projects because you wrote a great article for a smashing magazine a few years ago about when to say no. And I really loved in your article, you, you put it so beautifully where you said, saying no at the right times can be just as critical to the success of your business as saying yes. So could you share some of your top tips with us for when it's appropriate or probably best to say

Becca Kennedy:

Yes. And I have to say, I know it's so hard to say no to stuff sometimes because, I mean, first of all, like we have to make a living. We have to, you know, keep the lights on. Sometimes you need work and that kind of shifts things to where you might say no to things that aren't great, but you got to just do it to connect the dots to the next thing. But I learned, and I'm sure you've experienced and other consultants have experienced that, if you say yes to something that you don't feel great about, you'll resent it. And that could be because it's just not a fit for your skills. Um, you know, early on I would have people asking me to do UX design work and I'm like, I'm not really a good designer, you don't really want me to do that. And I could have said yes to those things and just been like, eh, well, here you go, it's okay ish, but you know, that doesn't make sense. But that could also apply to like a research project that's maybe usability testing and you don't do usability testing Like technically you could figure it out. But if it's something you don't even want to do like maybe just Offer it to somebody else. He would be a better fit. It could also just not be a good fit for your schedule. So when We're in the feast era of our feast or famine ever ongoing cycle Sometimes we want to say yes to things because it's just like oh, this seems really cool Even though my plates already full I can make it work. That's a

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah, I've been there.

Becca Kennedy:

and That's it You know, that can be really hard to say no or to, you know, pass it on to a friend or whatever, but ultimately, I would never want to be in a situation where I do a bad job on a project. Because I've just stretched myself too thin or have to rush or just make awful mistakes or something. That's just not worth it. So that's another piece of it. And also, if the budget of the project is not good, like sometimes those are the easiest ones to say no to, but sometimes not. If you're like, Oh, this does seem like interesting and I want to help them, but they would be paying me like a quarter of my usual rate. You would quickly start to resent things that otherwise you wouldn't. Like every new email would be like, what do you want now? Aren't I done

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah, the resentment would be there.

Becca Kennedy:

Um, so yeah, I personally have a, Checklist that I created. So when I am considering projects, I will take a look at that and be like, all right I like a hell. Yeah is like if seven or more of these things are true A probably yes as if like five or more are true. And if it's less than that don't take it unless like I really need it kind of stuff. So I mean everyone's checklist could be different, but for me it is like is it in an industry I enjoy like for me that's entertainment, gaming, wellness, or stuff I would feel good about like sustainability stuff. Does it pay a rate that would be equivalent to an hourly rate? That's what I want to get. Is it with people I enjoy working with? Cause that plays like a huge role. You know, um, so stuff like that when I'm considering opportunities, cause I, I'm sure a lot of other people do, but like, I get really excited about like new possibilities and like, I want to say yes right away, but if you take a beat, take a night, think about it, like sometimes you'll realize, all right, that could be cool, but it's not ideal. So. I will pass on that. No. Mm

Kyle Soucy:

that you have a checklist, an actual checklist, because I, I don't, and I think sometimes without having that listed out in front of you and literally checking them off, counting them up, is it really worth it? Because sometimes you do, you just get excited about the idea of something and you forget about, Oh, well, it's not really working out in these areas. And, um, I think that that's helpful. And you mentioned, uh, the project schedule. I find that a lot of people don't realize that They can't book themselves really 40 hours a week with client work. You, you have to leave time in your week for business development and outreach or else you are going to have a dip. You're going to have a slow period, right? You can't always be doing, only be doing, um, development and outreach when you're slow.

Becca Kennedy:

hmm.

Kyle Soucy:

Uh, so you got to build that into your week. So I think that's, that's a great point. I do have a question about budget, cause this is something that is important. Something we always face, and it's so hard, you need to know the budget, right, in order to scope appropriately to, you know, propose something that's within it. Uh, but it's oftentimes very hard to get the budget from the prospective client. How do you go about this? Do you have any tips for how to get them to share the budget with

Becca Kennedy:

It's always, you get better and better at it the more you practice, of course. I think sometimes asking, like Is there an amount that's been approved for this budget that I should know about? That does two things. That asks, is there an amount, is there a budget, and has it been approved? Because you want that information. And maybe the person you're talking to hasn't even necessarily done their homework yet. And they don't know where the money would be coming from. And they want your proposal first. And ask for the money basically. But you kind of want to avoid that situation if you can. So that's a question that works out okay. Often they'll say, Alright, well we want to see what you come up with. You know, uh, we, we don't know how much it costs. Let us know. And, um, that usually doesn't go the best either because usually the number they have in mind is lower than whatever you give, but in those,

Kyle Soucy:

That's the answer I loathe. I cannot stand that answer, but you get it all the time.

Becca Kennedy:

exactly. But one thing I'll do if I really can't get. any kind of numbers from them in conversation. I'll put together a proposal that has three different options, and the most appealing one, the one that I am actually recommending, is going to be the highest one, you know, but I'll be like, all right, but if your budget's less than this, you know, Here's what we would cut out of everything we talked about. If you want it even less, like you get a very like bare bones version of that, that might work for you. That's okay. But I think seeing the options can help too to understand like what they're actually getting for the money, right? I also really hate when this has happened a few times where you give your project fee And then they come back and say, how much is that an hour? Cause that's really what you want to avoid is that like trading time for money transactional thing. And a lot of times that's the way the client's thinking about it, but that really does not serve us,

Kyle Soucy:

Right. Right.

Becca Kennedy:

and even

Kyle Soucy:

What do you say in response?

Becca Kennedy:

I really try not to give a number. I really try to say that, like, the price is based on the effort and the value and I work very quickly. So just that kind of stuff. And sometimes that works. Sometimes they really just need a number, especially actually for subcontracting through an agency. And that's how they bill their client is hourly. It's like, well, you can't necessarily get around that. So I'll try to give the high end of my hourly rate, right? Like I'm not trying to cut you a deal or something, I'm just That's how much it costs. If we're doing this hourly, if I'm tracking my time, that's how much it's going to cost.

Kyle Soucy:

To the budget or the question that you ask, I think that's pretty brilliant. So asking them, is there a budget and has it been approved? I love that because who wants to admit that they are working without a budget, that they don't have a budget? Nobody does, right? I am actually going to use that. I have never thought to say, That second line of, has it been approved? Um, I think that's great. Cause typically I'm just asking what's your budget. And then I get that response of like, Oh, well, you know, we don't really, you know. We'd just want to see what you come up with and, you know, don't, don't be held back by that. And it's like, no, I need to know because you're immediately going to come back with sticker shock. And then I'm finally going to get an idea of your range. So let's skip that and get right to it. I'm going to put a link to the article on the show notes for everyone because you, you had a really great example of how you decline work nicely, but assertively, which I thought was really nice. So I'm going to put that in the show notes for people to look at because I do have a hard time saying no, and I find it helpful just to have, almost like a template for how to do it in a way that doesn't leave them high and dry, still gives them a feeling that you're helping, but you're just not taking on the work. So I thought that was well done.

Becca Kennedy:

it's, yeah, that's, can be hard to do. Sometimes you think you're clear and you're not, but I think saying thank you so much for the opportunity. This isn't going to work right now. This is not, you know, a fit for the type of work I'm trying to do right now or my schedule or whatever is great and then I like to if it makes sense just like offer like but I can Share the opportunity with others who might be a better fit if you want help doing that or if truly it's like a scheduling issue Just say unfortunately i'm booked up right now, but I would love to work on this with you in the future So if things change in your timeline or if something else comes up, please reach out like being clear about what the next steps are I think is good too. People don't get upset. Usually I had like one person be like, I've never had anybody in all my years say no to a meeting. And I was just like, all right.

Kyle Soucy:

Really?

Becca Kennedy:

Cause I just,

Kyle Soucy:

Wow.

Becca Kennedy:

the, the product was not a fit for something I wanted to do. And I was very polite and clear and didn't drag them along. And I was just like, no, thank you. It's like never in all my years of business. Have I had someone say no to a meeting? I was like, well, that's too bad.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah, good for you. That's surprising. Well that Yeah, right that interaction tells you a lot that you did the right thing turning it down. Wow You never know what you're going to come up against

Becca Kennedy:

Yeah. But overall, like people are just people. They just want to know so they can make their next decision.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah And you mentioned a couple times now about subcontracting and I know, you know, over the years we've talked with each other a lot about subcontracting through larger design firms and we do this, uh, in order to supplement our pipeline whenever direct client work is slow and I just like to discuss that a little more deeper, now for our listeners. Let me start, I guess, by defining subcontracting, and let me know if you agree with this. So, Um, with subcontracting through a larger design firm, you still have control over when and how you work. You create your own schedule, they work around it, but the number of hours and, or the scope of the work is really defined by that larger firm. And if you're in the US, you would still be considered 1099. Uh, this is not a WCO. To contract where you're committing to being on site or even at someone else's disposal during a set schedule Becca would you agree with this definition?

Becca Kennedy:

I think that's exactly right. Yeah.

Kyle Soucy:

And what are the key benefits and drawbacks of subcontracting through a larger design firm for you?

Becca Kennedy:

Yeah. It's interesting. As you were explaining that, I'm like, it really is like having two clients at once. Like the, the agency is your client and the end client is your client and you're, you're kind of delivering to both. Um, so benefits, I mean, like you said, it's great to fill in gaps and kind of supplement stuff we're doing when those opportunities come along. I actually think a big, big benefit for me is working with a team. So although like I'm kind of a independent person by heart, like across my life, I like my alone time and I like doing my own thing. I also like people. But the opportunity to work with a team of people on a project If they're good, people to work with is amazing to be like jam on stuff together and come up with ideas And get feedback on Your piece and give feedback on their piece. So a lot of times subcontracting for me like a project team might be like A project manager, like a designer, um, maybe a writer, maybe a, um, business designer, so you all come with your own expertise and you can actually work together on stuff. Sometimes you're the only one subcontracting, so they're like an existing dynamic that you're jumping into, sometimes everyone's. A consultant and that's great too, but I actually really like that aspect of it of working as a team and working toward Those deliverables together. It's almost like the feeling I got in high school of just like oh like we're all putting on this musical and we're moving toward like Opening night and just that kind of energy can be cool as long as it's not stressful. So I think that's A benefit like also just working and learning from other people and then maybe what's more obvious as a benefit is not having to deal with all of the Getting the project and all the client facing stuff Um all those back and forth emails like usually that's not on your plate. You're just doing your expert piece Of the engagement, right? Does that, is that how you usually experience it too?

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah. So you don't own that client relationship. They do. And in some ways it's kind of like a bummer because I'm not quote unquote growing my business because I'm not adding that client to my client list. But I mean you have to look at growth like you, we, we gain so much experience, all the projects that we do. And sometimes they work on some really great brands, some great juicy stuff that we may have. not be able to get on our own, um, or not be able to work with such a great team on, like you mentioned. So I agree that that's a definite benefit as well. Downside can sometimes be like you mentioned, a lot of them are time and materials, you know, it's, it's hourly, it's rare that I'm able to go in fixed project. That's definitely what I prefer. So that can be a little bit, It can feel a little bit like a grind because it's usually a little chaotic. You know, sometimes agency work, you're just doing a lot of, um, I don't, I always use the analogy of just like running with scissors in your hands and that's not too bad. Always the case, but it's always a tight time frame. It feels like and usually you're juggling other things along with it Um, so in that way it can sometimes be hard, but I was curious. How do you balance your own client work with projects? Along with Some of the subcontracting work that you're doing. How do you make sure neither one gets neglected?

Becca Kennedy:

is so tricky actually, because although like we've chatted about, it's not that we go into a subcontract saying like, I'm available for you 40 hours a week, like I'm your temporary employee. Like that's not how that should be. And if that's what they want, I would probably not want to take that project. Um,

Kyle Soucy:

tell them tell them to get a contractor, right?

Becca Kennedy:

yeah, exactly. Um, I think as much as, like, with the agency or firm you're working with, like, getting things on the calendar is so important. And some agencies are so good about this anyway, like, if you're expected to be at daily stand ups. By the way, I love when they're like we have daily stand ups come to the ones you can come to if not That's okay because it recognizes that like, all right, you're not like literally here every second. Um, But like get those on the calendar if you are running research like running interviews or testing sessions like getting those days on the calendar It's super important because usually with subcontracting it's like here's the weeks we have set aside We're gonna have the client listening in or whatever. It's just more, you don't have so much control over spreading them out like I like to do or stuff like that, but blocking those days off is great because I won't really schedule other stuff on research heavy weeks because I know I'm going to be tired. I know I'm going to be like committed to this one priority for a few days. So that really helps a lot, but I think it also can be easy to get into that flow and like going through the motions with your subcontract, cause it does feel a little bit more like a job. With, you know, co workers and stuff, um, but you're right, you have to remember that, like, alright, I have to keep going with my stuff, too, I have to keep having my meetings, with potential clients, I have to, not let my client work fall behind, Then we're in a bad spot if, you know, we don't have our own clients to go back to once this engagement's over. So I have learned that the hard way in the past where I just got too comfortable, subcontracting, like serial subcontracting, right. So like project after

Kyle Soucy:

Mm hmm

Becca Kennedy:

And when that dried up, I realized, Oh no, like I actually don't have other stuff at the moment. So it happens, you know, it's, it is really hard.

Kyle Soucy:

Like subcontracting. I'm so, so grateful for it. And I never want to feel like I'm annoyed by it or anything like that because it's what keeps the pipeline full a lot of times when Client work is dry, which it can be. I i've never been one of those people that can be booked back to back year after year like there's going to be slow periods And it's nice to have relationships partnerships with agencies that can you know Hopefully stars align and we can work together from time to time and keep that going But at the same time I will admit when you look back at your year and it's more subcontracting than direct client work. For me personally, I'm kind of like, oh, I want, I want more direct client work than subcontracting. But it's like, at the same time, I almost don't even wanna say that out loud because I would never want the subcontracting to completely go away

Becca Kennedy:

it's an okay balance. I, I probably ended up doing about 50 50. Um, and of course we've talked about this, but like last year, 2023 was like the worst for me. It was like my worst business year. It was so hard.

Kyle Soucy:

right there with you. Yep. Mm-Hmm.

Becca Kennedy:

some, like I, I made, More connections with more agencies than I had before because I was just like, well, this is great. They still have some work coming in and by the way like marketing agencies. So when we were seeing a lot of um You know tech layoffs and ux people getting laid off and content people getting laid off the marketing folks are still going So I started doing a little bit more like marketing related research subcontracting where it's really like I don't think about it much differently, but the money comes from the marketing departments and the marketing agencies. So just a side note, that's something that ended up working out for me to kind of get through a slower time.

Kyle Soucy:

Oh, that's interesting. And it is, market research, UX research. There are so many transferable skills there. We are going after different information, but, uh, it's still super interesting. Yeah. So I'd like to jump to a completely different topic now. That seems so random, but, I think it's needed. A while ago, you had mentioned to me shopping around for disability insurance. And at the time, I thought that was so wise. You know, as a self employed person, we all should have this coverage. And I'm Super embarrassed to admit that I still don't have it, which is crazy. I have two kids. I am 20 years in business Why don't I have disability insurance? We'll discuss but I'm hoping that This discussion will serve as a good reminder to myself and to the listeners to make sure you have coverage So if you could fill us in just on your insurance shopping experience and just tell us what you ended up getting

Becca Kennedy:

Yeah, okay. So I'm kind of a nerd about like finance stuff. And I think that came from like, I was a grad student for a really long time, which means I made like extremely little money. And I spent a lot of time just like reading finance blogs and stuff. And so when I started a business and wasn't making a lot of money right away, that wasn't too bad, but I, I always felt like, okay, well, when I have money, I know what to do with it. So, I do have. short term and long term disability. And I ended up doing after a little bit of research and everyone should do their own research. Cause it's different depending on where you live. And what might be available now might be different than it was a few years ago Um, but for long term disability, I have that through freelancers union. Which they are Located in new york city, but it's not only for new yorkers. Basically, they offer disability insurance and other kinds of insurance, too, Where basically on the policy, I think they're listed as You Your employer and it doesn't mean they're your employer. It just means that's how an insurance policy has to be set up um Yeah, so but the insurance itself is through guardian which is like very legit That happens to be also the company I use for life insurance So I know it's just a company and they're basically a vendor for guardian, but it's a way to Get that at It's very low cost, really. I mean, 30 or 40 a month, and so long term disability doesn't necessarily, replace your income, if something should happen to you, but it would likely pay more than, federal benefits would, and it does, um, Correspond to your income to a point it gets capped. But basically it's I think two thirds maybe of your income Um, it's supposed to cover so of course that's cap So if you make more than like their maximum, you're still making that top amount but it's yeah affordable and for me, I mean being someone who financially contributes to my household in a big way it just Added a little bit of peace of mind for me that like Really, I'm not investing a lot there, but it would help so much if, something were to happen and I wasn't able to work long term, you know?

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah, yeah, I'm in that camp of when I first heard you talk about it, I was Assuming that social security disability insurance, and for those of us in the U. S., that's our federal, disability program. Uh, you know, why, why would a self employed person need to buy disability insurance if they have paid into social security? And I didn't realize that. Until you mentioned it. I still can't believe it. Um, that you need more. That it's not going to be sufficient most likely to replace even a majority of your self employed income. Um, and then that also like the eligibility requirements, the waiting period, there's a lot to it. And I didn't realize that you could get Even additional riders, uh, supplemental insurance if you wanted to like to cover, things like retirement protection, like replacing the retirement contributions you made while you were working or a student loan rider, you know, make payments towards your student loans so that you know why you couldn't work like all these things that SSI is not gonna do for you. So I'm, I was so grateful when you mentioned it cause I was really in the dark about that.

Becca Kennedy:

Yeah. I mean, I don't know why anyone would know, just know that, like, it's just not like it would talked about or like readily available. And then in addition to that, I have short term disabilities. So that's something that would kick in sooner. Um, I think like 90 day, I don't, I don't know, 60, 90 days, something like that. And that I have bundled through my state. So with the New York state insurance fund, it's an offering. And by the way, all of this is very us specific. There are people

Kyle Soucy:

Right. Yeah,

Becca Kennedy:

just like that sounds like a nightmare.

Kyle Soucy:

that are laughing at us right now. I know it's horrible. Yeah.

Becca Kennedy:

So through New York state, I have short term disability and paid family leave bundled together. That's how they offer it. So that, it's a few hundred dollars a year, but that does cover, and this is stuff that employers will do for you sometimes if you work there as a benefit, but that covers short term injury and that kind of thing, but also paid family leave, which can be caretaking. for a sick family member or, giving birth and, basically parental leave. So I'm planning on having a child. I have that insurance in place because I want to get at least some parental leave. Again, it's capped. It doesn't totally cover my income, but it would give me like a few months of just like, I can get a check, you know, um, and get a little bit of income while I'm Taking care of a child or, in the event I'm taking care of a family member, that stuff, it helps, right? So it's not gonna completely cover As much money as you'd be bringing in if you were sitting at your desk and working but like it is something and I think Every little bit can help so that we're not draining our savings every time we have to deal with something in life

Kyle Soucy:

That's so fantastic. It's wonderful to have that care in place for when that time comes. And it's so great that you did that. And I hope that this helps other people too, to get that in place. It will help me. I am going to do it. I promise.

Becca Kennedy:

Yeah, unfortunately, like all this stuff does cost money and that's another reason why we have to like charge fair prices for our work. Cause we're not just taking home an hourly rate and we get to keep it. Like a lot of that goes to taxes and then a lot of that goes to our retirement savings and our, you know, insurances and stuff like that. Because we don't, we're our own employer. So just something to keep in mind. It's all related to, uh, Charging what you're worth, you know,

Kyle Soucy:

Exactly. Well, what I'd like to do now is wrap up with just some rapid fire questions. First one is if you had to describe UX consulting in one word, how would you describe it?

Becca Kennedy:

juggling,

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah, that's a good one. So

Becca Kennedy:

which, let me say, that's what I like about it. I think a lot of us can relate to just having like a ton of interest and being excited by new ideas and new things and switching gears and meeting people. It's just energizing. If it's not maybe this isn't the career for you.

Kyle Soucy:

Right. Yeah, a hundred percent. And that is I think so accurate. It is a juggle and a hustle and you have to Yeah.

Becca Kennedy:

You have to enjoy it.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah and what's the best piece of business advice you've ever received?

Becca Kennedy:

I think there's two. One's very tactical, but having a separate bank account for your tax money is very helpful. I would lose track and not do well if I didn't just immediately put, you know, that percent of money into this whole separate account. Uh, like a high yield savings, whatever you can do to get a little bit of interest on that. Just set that away and don't spend it. But I think also For business advice, it also can be business owner advice, right? This is something I talk about in therapy, which is keeping perspective on why you're running the business for yourself, what do you actually care about? Like, why are you even doing this? Because it can be easy to get pulled in directions and not really think too much about it and go for more money and this and that. But for me, I run a business because I want to have control and I want flexibility and I want freedom. So when things start going in that direction where I'm not feeling those things and there's tension, like, it's not about the bigger clients and the bigger contracts and The higher revenue for the year for me. It's just about balancing everything. Remind yourself of what you're doing right and check in and readjust as needed.

Kyle Soucy:

I love that. And lastly, what consulting resources have been most helpful for you? Uh, whether it be books, podcasts, coaches, articles.

Becca Kennedy:

I love The book design is a job by mike montero. So that's been around a while I mean the first edition came out more than 10 years ago. So i'm sure a lot of folks have read it There is an updated version. Which I bought the zine version of I think directly You

Kyle Soucy:

Me

Becca Kennedy:

From him online Which I love I think he just like lays things out in a way that is so no bs and just so like Here's how you write a proposal so that there's no surprises to the client. You've set everything up in a way Here's how you negotiate how you remember that companies don't care about you have to care about you, you know, like it's we do this stuff because we love doing it but We got to pay our bills, you know?

Kyle Soucy:

I think he's brilliant. I think Mike Montero, just look up anything that he's written. It's, it's worth reading. Um, did you get your little bar of soap with your zine too?

Becca Kennedy:

Yes.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah.

Becca Kennedy:

I did.

Kyle Soucy:

it's on like newspaper paper. Yes. I thought that was cute. And, everybody can check out Becca's consultancy at kenneson. com. That's K E N N A S O N. And I will put a link in the show notes. She has a great newsletter exploring everyday design called interrobang, which I didn't even know what an interrobang was until reading it. Apparently it's the exclamation point question mark together. Is that right? That's called an interrot bang, that

Becca Kennedy:

right.

Kyle Soucy:

Yeah, I thought that was so cool. I'm like, I didn't know that was a thing. But I love all of your reflections. It shows how you're a great writer and it just shows your love of just content. And I love your musings about. Reflection of design. She has a great piece on the Pizza Hut experience in the 90s. And, you know, I mentioned Disney before too. Just really good stuff to read, fun stuff. So please check that out. And Becca, thank you so much again for taking the time out of your day to share your wisdom with us. It was just awesome to catch up with you.

Becca Kennedy:

Thank you, Kyle.

Kyle Soucy:

All right, take care. All right. That wraps up this episode. Thanks for joining me. So do you have a topic or a question that you would like us to explore on a future episode of the UX consultants lounge? Perhaps there's an anonymous consulting story you want to submit. If so, click on the link in the show notes to submit your story or question from the podcast website. Until next time, keep that consultancy going. I can't wait to have you back in the lounge for our next episode.

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Kyle Soucy

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